Tamman Talks A11y on Beasley Philadelphia Radio Public Affairs
Tamman Co-founder Mike Mangos and Tamman President Marty Molloy are featured on an episode of Beasley Media’s Philadelphia Radio Public Affairs with Markus Goldman of WMMR fame to talk all things A11Y.
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Markus:
You’re listening to the Beasley Philadelphia Radio Public Affairs Show. I’m your host, Markus Goldman. With me today is Michael Mangos. He is the cofounder and Solutions Architect at Tamman, Inc., and a consultant and subject matter expert in digital accessibility, as well as Marty Molloy, who is the President of Tamman, Inc. They are here to talk about digital accessibility. What is digital accessibility? You will find out shortly. Marty, Michael, thank you for very much for taking time today to chat about a very important subject.
Marty:
Thanks, Markus.
Markus:
Before we get started diving into digital accessibility, do you want to give a little bit of a quick background on yourselves and what Tamman, Inc. does, and we’ll go from there?
Marty:
This is Marty. I’ll go first. I’m the President of Tamman, Inc. as you said, and Tamman is a software design and development shop, that over the last several years, especially because of the vision of my colleague here, Mike Mangos, really doubled down and became experts in the digital accessibility space. We also, though, are highly technical. We have a Mac engineering unit, and that’s an important piece, too, that I don’t want to lose. But at the end of the day, when we’re talking about digital accessibility and we’re talking about Tamman, we’re talking about people. People is our main advantage, because everything we do at Tamman is aligned and focused on inclusivity, from our work culture to the work that we produce. We really take a lot of time and attention to invest in our people and the resources at Tamman so that they can be force multipliers in whatever setting that they touch. As for me, I’ve been at Tamman since 2018. I have loved every minute of it. It is a growth opportunity for myself. I come from more of an educational and nonprofit and political background, which I am able to bring a lot of that experience into my day to day, into this wonderful technology firm. I feel very fortunate to be able to do that.
Mike:
This is Mike. My current role at Tamman is Solutions Architect. In that, I’m solving real business problems that intersect technology, design, communications, people, and organizational advancement. A major aspect of providing those solutions is finding creative, meaningful, and, frankly, legal ways to bring technology to all people, regardless of ability. That’s usually in the form of digital accessibility consulting, although I maybe have a hand in design, and so forth. I also work with organizations to level them up in their what we call accessibility maturity, which is a team that can build things with accessibility baked right in. I know that we haven’t defined these terms yet, so maybe we can dive into that.
Markus:
Let’s dive into that, but first, let’s give out your website, your social media information, and any other information that is pertinent where people can get more information about not only what you do, but more explanation as to what it is you do.
Marty:
I am really proud of our website. From a standpoint of learning, we have a ton of content on our website, which you can find at www.tammaninc. That’s T-A-M-M-A-N-I-N-C.com. You can find us all over social media, Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, and it’s @TammanInc. T-A-M-M-A-N-I-N-C. You can find a lot of information there. Dive in. We have blog articles, we have case studies, we have some explainers. People who get excited about what we’re talking about will really be able to engage with us both through our social media and our website. There’s one other thing, Markus, that’s important, is we also started a podcast last year called Article 19. Article 19 takes digital accessibility and blows it up a little bit, because our ethos for Article 19 is, access to information is a human right. We’re gonna, I’m anticipating, talk a lot about accessing information and why that is so important for everyone to be able to do it. You can find Article 19 anywhere where you get your podcasts.
Markus:
It is something that is very important. To get that conversation started, can you answer the first question, what is digital accessibility?
Mike:
It starts a little further back than maybe the term digital accessibility, but 31 years ago, Congress passed the Americans with Disabilities Act. When it passed that, it didn’t really take into consideration, or it didn’t really address directly, what are new realities around the internet, mobile technologies, and electronic interfaces in public places, and how they have completely become essential in all of our lives, both personally and professionally, or in business.
Marty:
Mike—this is Marty again—the truth of the matter is, there was no internet as we knew it when the ADA passed. It’s not like they ignored it; it’s that young. I think we sometimes forget how new all of this really is.
Mike:
It was the very beginning of the nineties when Tim Berners-Lee invented the World Wide Web. A lot of us don’t remember, that was just 30 years ago.
Marty:
Which is unbelievable.
Mike:
I know. So there’s that. Digital accessibility then is this concept of providing access to existing electronic information, services, work tools, to everyone, regardless of where they fall on what we call the spectrum of ability. I kind of like that term, by the way, spectrum of availability, if I can take a sidebar on that, in that we don’t just always talk about disability, because that implies maybe a certain permanent condition, and a lot of people have these mental hooks on the word disability. So if we get out of that and say there’s a spectrum of ability, everybody falls differently there, and can fall differently there based on time of day, personal and environmental factors, mental state; there’s a lot of things that factor into that. Basically, we want to create access to things that are electronic to people equally, and that we shouldn’t have additional barriers just because of where you fall on that spectrum of ability. The ADA does require it, but it doesn’t really give any clear prescriptive ways to do that, and so there’s been a lot of the world figuring this out, and feeling their way into, what do we need to do to comply with the law, being the Americans with Disabilities Act, and without really, really clear definitions that are prescribed by that way, how do I know if I’m on the right side of the law? And then even if I am on the right side of the law, am I actually doing this well? Have I actually provided that access to information that Marty and I, and many, many others, believe is a human right? There couldn’t be a more prescient conversation to be having right now, in times of when we’re seeing things happening in Eastern Europe and in Asia, with Ukraine, information and disinformation. Marty and I have talked a lot about—and Marty has done a fantastic episode on Article 19 around, is all access to information always good? Do you have a right to access anything that’s out there, even if it’s disinformation? We’re not going to tackle that here today—
Marty:
Why not? I was so excited, I thought you were leading in. But no, you’re absolutely right. Mike, there’s one thing that you said there, if I can, Markus, to jump in, that I’d like him to clarify, is that you said “access to information” equally. I want to push you on that a little bit, because some of the language in the ADA doesn’t talk about equal access, it talks about equitable access. Am I right in thinking that, that as long as you can access the information in an equivalent way, in an equivalent manner, it doesn’t have to be in the exact same way, equally?
Mike:
Really interesting point. I think there’s been a change in attitudes around what it means to make something accessible, or digitally accessible, in that there used to be this idea of functional equivalence. For instance, not that long ago, if you had a website and somebody couldn’t use it because of a disability, that you could provide a phone number they could call, and you could deal with them one to one, human style. That’s no longer considered acceptable. Again, there’s no hard and fast rules around that. It’s just that the winds have changed and the law, or at least case law, is starting to say that you can’t just provide a phone number to order your pizza. The person, if they can order their pizza electronically through the website, they should be able to do that even if they’re using assistive technology or they have a disability.
Markus:
You mentioned spectrum of ability, you mentioned disability, and maybe to put it into perspective for people, it’s for people who have vision issues being able to access a website, and being able to have the information, or be able to hear the interview via an audio link versus us who read that interview or read that article, correct? Is that what you mean by access to information?
Mike:
Digital accessibility can come in a bunch of forms, right, because there isn’t really a way for somebody who can’t hear at all, for instance, if they’re on the spectrum of ability in the hearing domain, they’re not going to be able to hear it no matter how loud you make it, so offering a big volume button is not enough. That could help some people on that spectrum, but it’s not going to help everybody. The idea is that we need to provide that information possibly in an alternative way, and that would be a transcript, or that would be captions, or that would be some other means, and so that—
Marty:
I really want to jump in here, Mike, because I think for people to understand the level at which and the pace at which this has changed, even, that you and I went through a period a couple of years ago talking about the importance of audio descriptions, giving audio descriptions as a richer form of consuming that media than merely captions. Can you talk a little bit about the difference between captions and audio descriptions for someone who may have a use constraint?
Mike:
Yeah, if I can, Marty, can I back out and maybe just talk about the types of disabilities? Because I think that would really ground listeners in what we’re talking about.
Markus:
Absolutely.
Mike:
Disabilities can come in a handful of flavors. You have sensory disabilities, which if we call that perceptual disability, think of that as vision issues, hearing issues, touch issues. There are others, obviously. We have five senses; some would argue six or eight. But the idea is that from a digital perspective, we’re mostly talking about vision, hearing, and touch, when it comes to mobile or kiosk interfaces. You have mobility or physical disabilities. That really impedes people’s ability to press buttons, pull a lever, operate a thing, use a mouse, that kind of stuff, right? Then you have cognitive disabilities, which get into that area around, can I understand something, can I have focus on something, are things being presented in a way that I can logically follow? This is the trickiest one, because cognitive disabilities come in such a wide array of things. We’ll recall on the spectrum of ability, you have people that have ADD, traumatic brain injury, even things like depression can fall in there. Those are considered disabilities, and providing ways for people to access information even if they have these things going on is important in digital accessibility. Those are three big buckets that I like to think about. There could be more, but I think this is a nice starting point to understand this conversation. There’s another dimension to it, in that every one of those things that I just brought up can be either permanent, temporary, situational, or episodic. The idea there that I don’t have to be fully blind, let’s say, permanently, to be considered to have a disability. I could be somebody who had eye surgery, I’m going to be better in a few weeks, but temporarily, I can’t see. Or I’ve lost my depth perception because one eye is covered. Just to give you an example. There’s another great example that Microsoft likes to use. You could be physically impaired situationally if you’re a mom who’s holding a baby and you just can’t use two hands to operate the keyboard. That is considered an environmental disability, or a situational disability. It’s not that that necessarily falls under the medical diagnosis of disability, but when we work on digital accessibility as a concept, we take all those things into account, because what’s going to help somebody who is, let’s say, armless, or has no ability to use their arms, that also is going to help the mom who’s holding the baby and is trying to get something done. That could be important to her and her family. We do consider all of these things, but that extra dimension, which most people don’t ever think about, that don’t have to solve for these business problems or these access to information problems around permanent, temporary, situational, or episodic, it kind of opens up the whole domain of, how big of a thing we’re trying to solve.
Marty:
And any teacher out there, Markus, will tell you that what’s good for some is often good for all. When you get into statistics about one in five Americans have a disability, or one in eight Americans are 65 and older right now, and are having some physical declines in their life, it’s actually benefiting everyone when you start to wrap in the situational, the episodic, and some of these other things. Digital accessibility truly does make access to information, especially on the internet, and digitally and electronically, easier for every single person.
Markus:
You’ve mentioned quite a few different disabilities or areas on the spectrum of ability. When the original American Disabilities Act was passed, was it vague enough to allow these to be considered disabilities, or did it have to have political modifications down the line, to make sure that these mental health issues that we have talked about over the decades get to be classified properly in access to information?
Mike:
I think the ADA was written vaguely enough to allow it to be interpreted. Just like the elastic clause in the Constitution allows for a lot of future interpretation and expansion without having to necessarily write a ton of amendments, the Americans with Disabilities Act I think was written broadly enough. It also, though, however, has been its biggest pain point, right, around the fact that it’s so vague that it doesn’t really tell you how to make something accessible for people, so that’s why it’s taken almost 30 years for momentum to get to the point where business and industry and the internet and governments are really trying to seriously tackle this.
Marty:
Mike, I would add it looked at it from a slightly different lens than the way that we’re coming at it. So, certainly it talked about people who had the traditional visible disabilities that one might assume, if you were a wheelchair user or if you had a vison impairment, things like that. But it also included things that might affect you in the employment realm, which is a whole other channel of the ADA. Certainly, when we think about the ADA, we think about some of its successes, like curb cuts, which we can see and feel every day whenever we’re walking around. But it also had things that talked about if you had intellectual disabilities, cancer, epilepsy, things that might affect you in an employment space as well. The truth of the matter is, because the ADA is this gigantic piece of legislation that Mike just described, it has had tremendous success in transforming our world. It’s the single most important piece of civil rights legislation in most of our lifetimes, and has transformed our world physically and in a lot of other ways, but from an employment standpoint, it hasn’t always been as successful, and that might be a whole other conversation that we have to dive into some of this. But it covered a lot.
Mike:
Well, and Marty, up until just a couple of years ago, I would also argue it really wasn’t successful in digital accessibility, either so it has kind of not done the work that it was intended to do in a couple of really key domains.
Marty:
Agreed. Completely agree.
Markus:
So far, Mike and Marty, you have mentioned the spectrum of ability, disabilities, the ADA. How do we make information accessible in a digital world, and what are some of the challenges you face in that area?
Marty:
That is the million dollar question. As Mike has already alluded to as well, is that in this space, because the ADA does not directly cover it, a lot of the changes are happening through case law. That’s one thing that’s really important, so people that are interested in this, paying attention to the types of lawsuits that are being brought, to be able to access information, is really important. Until Congress decides to address this, that’s really where the change is happening. In terms of our work and what we use to follow, the thing that is the most guiding light, the North Star for our work, is something called the WCAG. These are the guidelines for web accessibility. But Mike, why don’t you dive into some of the meat of the WCAG?
Mike:
Yeah, the WCAG stands for Web Content Accessibility Guidelines. It’s not the only guide that’s out there, but it is the thing that pretty much the whole planet, almost every government around the world, and organizations internationally, have agreed upon as the most comprehensive guidelines for how to make information accessible on the web. That also includes how to make applications usable, right? It isn’t just about information. The ways we get information, if you’re thinking about using a website to look something up, go to a public library online, and you want to check out a book and you want to get some content, or you want to Google some journals, and you get to a journal site. If everybody that was producing websites, or web technologies, or web applications, followed these guidelines, and did it not just by checking boxes, but did it by engaging with all the principles that are in these guidelines, we would have an incredibly accessible World Wide Web for everyone.
Marty:
And the WCAG, in itself, is by no means a perfect set of guidelines.
Mike:
No.
Marty:
It’s still evolving, and it’s still changing. There is a consortium of people who are constantly trying to improve the WCAG. Right now we’re working off of a version, and that version is being changed, because as technology changes, as assistive technology changes, these things constantly have to be updated.
Mike:
But WCAG is well over 20 years old—I forget exactly how many years it is now—and they’re only on version 2.1, so it doesn’t change often, but it does get changed, and it has changed a lot since its original version. But in it, I talked earlier about perceptual disabilities, physical disabilities, which the WCAG talks about as being operable, or things that allow you to operate a site or an application, and then understandable principles within it, which are about reaching those users or people that have cognitive challenges with accessing information. It lays out in there 60 some different principles or different techniques to apply to your design and your technical programming, so that you can make your stuff accessible to everybody. The challenge is there are some principles in there that can be, depending on how they’re interpreted, at odds with one another, and this is one of the challenges, that sometimes when you’re serving one population or one slice of an audience, you end up alienating another. And it doesn’t happen often, but it definitely comes up in our work, because we’re trying to serve so many people and we’re trying to hit all these things, and we think so deeply about how to achieve all of these principles, we end up finding that design is not as easy as you would think. When you ask, how do we make information accessible, yes, there is this really incredibly good directive set of guidelines called the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines, but more than that, the work that Marty and I spend a lot of our time doing is in educating people who produce content, and who design interfaces, and who program websites. Teaching them how to hold these principles in their mind in a way that they don’t have to go add a lot of extra work to what they do, but rather they change the way they approach their work, and then the things come out accessible. I think it’s a really important paradigm shift, or a mind shift, because once we achieve that, everything gets a little bit easier. One of the most impactful statements that we use on a regular basis with clients or people that we’re working with and consulting with, is accessibility, or [inaudible 00:19:51] digital accessibility, is everyone’s responsibility. A lot of people don’t see that. If you’re a businessperson and you’re producing a little informational sheet about your employee benefits at your company—you’re in HR, you’re going to send this out to everybody—if you don’t, as a content producer, somebody who is making the content for that communication—it might just be an email—if you don’t apply digital accessibility techniques or principles to that content, there’s going to be somebody who works in your organization who’s not going to be able to access it or read it or consume it. And so it’s really important that everybody sees that they have a role in this. It’s not just up to the developers. It’s not just up to the nerds like me. It’s up to everybody, and it’s changed the way that I make documents. We kid about it—I’m a bit of a stickler for formatting in making a document. Where I become a stickler about it isn’t just because I have a little bit of OCD where I like everything to look the same way in a certain way with the right alignments, but also that when I put something like headings in my document, if I’m typing something and I just put enough headings in there, that means that I’ve given anchor points to people who use assistive technology to navigate and get through that document. Think about this, Mark. I believe you’re fully sighted, or if you have assistive technologies like contact lenses or eyeglasses, you would consider yourself not visually impaired. Is that right, Mark?
Markus:
Correct.
Mike:
With that, you can take a printed document or an electronic document; it could be a webpage, an article you’re reading from The Philadelphia Enquirer, or whatever it is, and you can scan down the headlines in that long article, that big op-ed, and you can say, oh, I get a sense of what this article is about by reading the headlines. You might skip over a piece of content because the headline didn’t really capture your attention, or kind of feel like you know that you want to get to the other meat. If you’re somebody that can’t see those headlines, if we don’t craft enough headlines, or if we don’t give digital access to those headings in that document to everybody, then somebody might have to listen to every single word of that article to even start to understand what it’s about. It sounds so simple, and may sound obvious to some people, but just the proper use of headings in writing something as simple as a long email or an explanation of benefits, suddenly unlocks the potential of that document to create impact or to create value, or to create equal access to information, or equitable access to information, for everybody that’s going to get it.
Marty:
And Mike, to bring that full circle to where we started a moment ago, and we were saying that this is something that benefits everyone, even someone who only has a use constraint like corrective lenses, and they otherwise can read through those headings, are going to be able to consume that document more easily, more likely to be able to retain that knowledge, make it make sense to them, because of the structure. Again, it absolutely transforms it for the individual who might be using a screen reader, but it still thoroughly benefits anyone else who is going to be reading and consuming that content.
Markus:
You mentioned assistive technology, which glasses came up, and a screen reader. Could you give some other examples of different types of assistive technology that is out there, and what it’s used for?
Mike:
First, let’s just talk about what technology is. Think of them as oftentimes extensions of the human body. I want to go build a workbench in my basement, I’m not going to take a nail and pound it with my fist; I’m going to use a hammer. [laughter]
Marty:
I love that we’re starting at that level for this. Everybody settle in because it’s coming. Go ahead, Mike, I’m sorry.
Mike:
Yes, sorry, I know, I’m very academic about these things. But I think the idea is that that’s a technology, right? But assistive technology, I think as a subset of all technology, is something that most people who don’t self-identify as having a disability, would say, “I don’t need that to do a normal operation of life.” Assistive technology is something that helps, I think, level the playing field a bit, or at least bridge the gap between somebody who says, “I need help doing this thing,” that many other people don’t need help doing. For you, Mark, if you wore glasses, it would be something around the example of, “I can’t read this text, I can’t read a book without my glasses unless I hold it one inch from my face,” kind of thing. We would call that a kind of assistive technology. It’s interesting, because there are many people, let’s say wheelchair, temporarily or permanently, you’d say, oh, you’re disabled, and somebody in a wheelchair would say, “Actually, I’m not disabled, because I have a wheelchair.” That wheelchair becomes their assistive tech; it then makes the world accessible to them. As long as we don’t throw up additional barriers, like a bunch of steps, if they have a ramp to get in the building instead of steps, well then that ramp then would not be necessarily an assistive tech that’s unique to that person, but that ramp allows them to use their assistive technology to get inside the building. We have very similar kinds of examples in the digital space. When we talk about things like screen magnifiers that can pump up the size of things that you can see on screen. We have different types of input devices. Most people are used to using a computer. I’m just gonna make an assumption that all the listeners here know what a keyboard is, and a mouse is, but some people can’t use a mouse because they don’t have the mobility to grab it and articulate it, but they can use a keyboard. The keyboard then becomes their assistive technology to access that website. Most of us who can use a mouse, or a trackpad don’t normally use our keyboard to navigate a webpage, but some people have to. It’s Marty’s job and my job to make a website that can be navigated with a keyboard, and believe it or not, there are many, many websites that are not navigable. It’s our job to create the compatibility between what we make and the different assistive technologies that people need to access the things that we’re making. It’s that surface area between those two things that is the magic of how we make something accessible.
Marty:
Yeah, we’re really building the ramps, we are not building the wheelchair, to continue that analogy. And Markus, assistive technology has absolutely ballooned over the last few years, and is going to continue to do so, but it can include things as complicated as a sip and puff, where someone is navigating the Web using their breath. There is eye motion assistive tech, there is switch devices. We’ve seen some—Microsoft has a really powerful commercial around playing video games with a switch device and things like that. And Mike has given this example on a number of different trainings I’ve heard, where if you think about someone who is using a switch device—and this is a device where someone might use their head to the right or to the left, and hit a button with their head to navigate a particular activity on the internet, and if you make something poorly, you are being physically abusive to that individual to access that information. If you can imagine having to hit your head over and over and over again just to get to the information that you want, that can be, as I said, abusive, and that’s an example that Mike has given a lot. And when we start to put ourselves in the position, in the spaces of others, when we start acting with empathy, we start designing and building with a little bit of empathy, all of the sudden you realize that when I need to do something, as we all have done even more so because of COVID, when I need to do something on the Web, if I can’t get to that information, that is a real hardship. And it doesn’t always have to be entertainment consumption, it doesn’t always have to be consumer consumption. Sometimes it’s a government document, a passport, an application to something that you really need, and if that person doesn’t have access to be able to put something in, it can be really, really, life hurting, hurting their life.
Markus:
What can we do to be better, to make digital accessibility for everyone?
Marty:
Mike already said that digital accessibility is everyone’s responsibility, and there’s a lot of things that you can do. The most important thing is awareness. If you’re not in the business that we’re in and you’re not actively engaged in training and educating and building digitally accessible websites and applications and things like that, you might feel like, “I don’t really have a role to play.” I disagree. There is a role for consumers to play. If they see something that isn’t digitally accessible, they should call it out. You can do it simple as putting it on social media. Trust me, when you go to Twitter and you call out a business for not doing something accessibly, they will respond to you as quickly as possible, again, because that case law is really what’s making a difference. If you see something, you can do it. One trick early on that a dear friend of Tamman’s taught me when I was first learning about digital accessibility, is I now go to a website—and I do this all the time—and the first thing I do is I hit the tab key, and I see, can this site be navigated using the keyboard? Nine times out of 10, if that’s possible, the site’s probably somewhat accessible, if not fully accessible. Would you agree, Mike?
Mike:
Yeah.
Marty:
And so that’s one little trick. Don’t need to have a lot of knowledge, you certainly don’t need to know all of the different points of the WCAG, but it’s one way to just be a part of this process and to make the world a slightly better place from the consumer side. The last thing I’ll say, and then I’ll turn it over to Mike, is the example that Mike gave. If your boss or your colleague in work gives you information and it is a jumble to you, it will be that much more of a jumble to your other colleagues. Say something about that. It’s like we always say, if you have a question and you’re brave enough to ask that question, oftentimes someone else had that question and they weren’t brave enough to step up. So I think those are just two things that jump to mind that I would love to see people do a little bit more, and to do them with kindness, knowing that people aren’t always thinking about digital accessibility right now as the forefront of what, when they’re creating content, but there are ways in which we can certainly make the world a little bit of a better place by doing that.
Mike:
Can you repeat your question one more time?
Markus:
What can we do to be better to make digital accessibility there for everybody?
Mike:
I think the question is really good. It comes in two parts. People that are working that are producing content or interfaces or websites, they need to take it upon themselves to go learn how to produce those things with digital accessibility. There are resources out there; they should just go learn it. It’s a big deal. It’s the law. Businesses have a different kind of obligation to this. But I think when we talk about individuals, if we want to say whether I’m working or not, or regardless of what my job is, if I’m somebody that puts content out there, I need to take a few steps to make it accessible. I would say that people are not doing it professionally, but let’s say they’re posting on Instagram, they can start putting alternative text descriptions on the pictures that they post so that they can actually engage with people. The idea that accessibility is everyone’s responsibility is real, and everybody can do a little something. I think if we all did a little bit, it would go a long way.
Markus:
Again with me are Michael Mangos, who is a founder and Solutions Architect at Tamman, Inc. and a consultant and subject matter expert in digital accessibility, along with Marty Molloy who is the President of Tamman, Inc. Before we wrap it up, gentlemen, do you have any final words, and can you please give out your website information, your podcast information, and your social media information as well?
Mike:
I’d leave us with just the thing that I keep drumming in here. Digital accessibility is everyone’s responsibility. We can all do a little bit, and those of us who make a lot, need to do a lot, and those who make a little need to do at least a little.
Marty:
I would just point people to educate themselves. You can certainly start by going to our website or Googling digital accessibility, and you will find a wealth of information there. Our website, again, is www.tammaninc.com, T-A-M-M-A-N-I-N-C.com. We also post quite a bit of content on our social media platforms, so you can find us on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, whatever you happen to use. We are @TammanInc there. Then if you’re more of an audio person, which I think some people in your audience here would be, you can check out our podcast Article 19, where we look at a very broad scope of what it means that access to information is a human right. That’s something that we stand very firmly on, and we look at it from the lens of education, from certainly digital accessibility. We get a little bit nerdy, we get a little bit techy, but we certainly have a lot of fun, and we try to bring a lot of humor to the conversation as well, so we hope that folks will check out Article 19 as well.
Markus:
You’re listening to the Beasley Philadelphia Radio Public Affairs Show. I’m your host, Markus Goldman. Again with me today are Tamman, Inc. cofounder and Solutions Architect Michael Mangos, along with Tamman, Inc. President Marty Molloy. If you would like more information about the access to information and digital accessibility, you can go to the Tamman website, tammaninc.com, and be sure to check out their Article 19 podcast wherever you listen to podcasts. If you have any questions, comments, or anything else Public Affairs related, email me at markus.goldman@bbgi.com. We hope you’ll be back next week to listen to a new Public Affairs show. Thank you for listening. Have a great day.
