Normalizing Workplace Accommodations, first episode
In part 1, Article 19 unmasks unspoken fears of needing more support
Workplace accommodations are a topic that drives fear and uncertainty for both employees and employers.
Featuring personal anecdotes and professional insights, this documentary-style episode shares 6 unique perspectives that uncover the challenges of navigating the job market and the workplace for people with disabilities, the emotions around asking for accommodations, and the experience of hiring and supporting people with disabilities.
This episode is the first part of a 2-part podcast. Check out the second Normalizing Workplace Accommodations episode.
Meet our guests:
- Charlotte McGhee works in client services and lives with two invisible disabilities, ulcerative colitis and POTS
- Daniel Hawkins is QA specialist and a deafblind individual with experience in braille, protactile, and ASL
- Leah Mattern is a digital accessibility engineer, a staunch disability advocate, and lives with a genetic condition called rod monochromatism which renders her legally blind
- Liza Grant is a document accessibility specialist, a team lead, and a strong accessibility advocate
- Marty Molloy is the president of Tamman and an accessibility advocate
- Theresa Tuccillo is the administrative manager at Tamman and an accessibility advocate
Listen to more Article 19 Podcast Episodes
Full Transcript
Kristen:
Hello, and welcome to Article 19. I’m Kristen Witucki, content creator and accessibility specialist at Tamman. And I am also the host for our conversation today. We’re taking this episode in a new direction. Rather than a conversational interview, in which we interview a guest or a panel, we humbly offer you a story. Or maybe a patchwork quilt of stories. Employees with visible and invisible disabilities who navigate job acceptance and their rights as human beings to work in conditions that are not only most comfortable for them but also lead to their best, most genuine work. And a company that experienced a lot of growth as it worked to make its culture more and more inclusive.
Article 19 is a call for others to join us in a bigger conversation around the ADA, Digital Accessibility, and access to information. At Tamman, we are working to build the inclusive web every day. But to do that, we need all of us – working together & learning together. Thanks so much for going with us on this journey!
Narrator (Produced Introduction)
Expression is one of the most powerful tools we have. A voice, a pen, a keyboard. The real change which must give to people throughout the world their human rights must come about in the hearts of people. We must want our fellow human beings to have rights and freedoms which give them dignity. Article 19 is the voice in the room.
Kristen:
Hi everyone! I’m Kristen. I’m an author, a teacher, a mentor, and a parent who is also blind. According to typical career age and expectations, I’m about midway through my career. And like many people, I still often wonder what I’ll do when I grow up. But sometimes I think the “up” just keeps getting higher, I’ll never reach it, and the best I can do is to go into life with an open mind and a vulnerable heart.
I started contracting with Tamman almost three years ago now. My first assignment as a writer was to craft a series of essays about employment for people with disabilities. I started with the employer perspective, getting comfortable with discomfort and letting go of our deeply entrenched biases. Then I moved to the employee perspective and went a little more typical: How to get the job, how to move through rejection and try again, and then I got to acceptance, and I screeched to a halt. [slamming on the brakes sound].
How could I write about acceptance for people with disabilities when it is so complex and when it varies with the individual? For people whose disabilities are invisible, or did not come up during the interview, how does one positively and confidently say, “Here’s what I need to be successful?” And for people whose disabilities came up during the interview, there are still feelings of discomfort. What if the thing I really need to succeed at work is too expensive? What if I’m just a checkbox to show that this company has hired its requisite number of employees with disabilities?
In other words, why is acceptance just as fraught as rejection? Why isn’t it an experience of unmitigated joy? Well, part of that is true enough for everyone, with or without accommodation needs. Acceptance is when the real work begins. For people with disabilities, however, it’s where the real education begins. And we are the educators, whether we like it or not.
I decided that acceptance calls for more than a blog. The feelings of acceptance call for talking it out with others. And here we are.
Kristen:
Alrighty, Are we recording?
Markus:
We are! Kristen, can you move your microphone closer to you please?
Kristen:
Yep. Is that good?
Markus:
A little bit closer. Just a hair closer.
Kristen:
Alright.
Markus:
Perfect. And you are sounding great! Shall I count you in?
Kristen:
Sure.
Kristen (Narrator):
That, by the way, was Article 19’s phenomenal audio producer, Markus Goldman. You won’t hear him much, but his work is felt everywhere. The way I perceive the world can feel impossible to understand in our visual society. Much of the typical human experience depends on sight. But I am here with no sight, living a full life with my husband, who is also blind, and my sighted children, who are learning to understand our blindness. Technology and accommodations have created an environment which, when implemented well, allows me to engage at my full potential. But that’s the catch. Good implementation does not always happen. And when accommodations and technology fail, it’s hard to describe what it feels like to be left behind. Especially in my career. Accepting a new position at a company can bring up incredible apprehension. The feeling is “Okay great, now what?”
So that is what I really wanted to understand. Why is there uncertainty surrounding accommodations?
Now, It’s no secret that I am blind. In fact, if you and I were to meet face to face it would be very obvious to you. That is because being blind is, for lack of a better term in this ocular-centric world, a visible disability. The visual signs are a mobility cane and facing you without genuine eye contact. These are things a sighted person would use to very quickly identify my disability.
There is a wide range of disabilities. And, a wide range within disabilities. Blindness and low vision alone is an incredible spectrum. And not every visual impairment is visible like mine. I reached out to several of my friends and colleagues to try and understand their experience with low vision or blindness a little better.
Leah:
My name is Leah Mattern. I’m a digital accessibility engineer for Tamman Inc.
Kristen (Narrator):
Leah is an incredible accessibility engineer. Her work speaks for itself in both design and implementation of accessibility into the work. When she’s in an office interviewing for a job, you would not realize that she actually has a visual disability.
Leah:
I was born with a condition called rod monochromatism, which is a genetic condition in which I was born without any of the cones in my retina. It renders me legally blind. I cannot see any color. I am extremely light-sensitive. I have extreme double vision, nystagmus, and my acuity is about 2200, so it makes life pretty interesting [Laughter].
Kristen (Narrator):
When Leah walks outside with a cane and glasses that help with the glare, you might be able to tell that she has low vision. Her disability is sometimes visible, sometimes invisible, and you’ll hear later on about some of the accommodations that help her succeed.
I reached out to another colleague, Daniel, to chat with him about his experiences.
Daniel:
My name is Daniel Hawkins, and I am actually a deafblind individual. So I have a total vision loss. I can’t see Nothing. I also have profound hearing loss. I actually wear a hearing aid and actually know American Sign Language. So, right now with Tamman, I’m actually a quality assurance tester, but I specialize in manual accessibility testing. As a blind person, I’m an expert screen reader user, but I use those various screen readers to test that component for Tamman.
Kristen (Narrator):
Daniel has recently begun crucial QA testing at Tamman, bringing us the knowledgeable user perspective. And finally, this is Charlotte.
Charlotte:
My name is Charlotte McGee and I am the junior client services and traffic coordinator. I work under Allejandra, with the PO Team. I basically help with a lot of administrative stuff. Anything that Alejandra needs, coordinating dates, deadlines, things like that.
Kristen:
I was doing the research for this episode, and Charlotte, who recently started her new position, asked how she could help with the accommodations conversation. Charlotte has what is called an invisible disability.
Charlotte:
So I have the diagnoses of ulcerative colitis and POTS, which is postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome, in case, you know, nobody knows what those are. Ulcerative colitis is basically, inflammation and where you get stomach ulcers in your digestive tract. And then postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome, I feel like it’s a relatively new diagnosis. But it’s basically where you have an orthostatic intolerance. So when you tend to stand up or you walk, the blood volume doesn’t translate. So, your body basically overcompensates by your heart rate going way, way, way up. And it can cause symptoms like lightheadedness, fatigue, things like that. Fainting in some people.
Kristen (Narrator):
An invisible disability is a disability that might not be obvious to you or me. The invisible and visible distinctions are sometimes useful, and people with invisible disabilities who didn’t show up with that disability during the job interview sometimes experience unique challenges when they’re accepted. But people with all kinds of disabilities have a lot in common. Charlotte had to learn how to navigate the world in a unique way to listen to her body and her needs.
And, although Daniel’s disabilities are “visible”, Daniel has had to do the same thing.
Kristen:
You started to touch on this already, but how would you describe your disability? Especially to people who don’t know you very well.
Daniel:
So as a deaf-blind person, I actually have what we often call dual sensory loss. So as a blind person, I have no vision whatsoever. I can see nothing. No light perception. On the other side, I also have hearing loss, which a lot of blind people will rely on more. But because of my hearing loss, I need to rely on other senses like touch.
Kristen (Narrator):
For my own day-to-day life, I have built my own system. My home, for example, is set up in ways that I am very comfortable with. I have control over my needs. That isn’t quite the same outside of my controlled environments. Often employees and individuals must work within systems established by the organization they are part of.
Some companies hand you a keyboard and a mouse and just send you on your way. With that cookie cutter setup, those of us with specific needs might not be able to operate comfortably, let alone at our full potential. With the idea of accommodations for all in place, employees with disabilities are set up for success. Some accommodations are quite simple. New advancements in technology have provided incredible solutions for many different types of disabilities. Daniel, who identifies as deaf-blind, talks about his ideal work setup.
Daniel:
So, I am completely deaf in my right ear. In my left ear I use a hearing aid to help me hear. If I don’t have my hearing aid, I cannot hear anything at all. So with the hearing aid, I can hear my computer. I can hear people around me. But right now, I’m connected here using my hearing aid through the Bluetooth connection. I also use sign language to communicate. Let’s say with people that know sign language, maybe it’s supposed to be you. It’s noisy. I can’t hear very well. But I put my hand on your hand. And this is called tactile sign language.
Kristen (Narrator):
Daniel uses hand-over-hand touch communication, a version of ASL usually called protactile.
Daniel:
Also, other adaptive technology I use. So as a blind person, when I interact with the computer on my phone, I use a special software called a screen reader. So it will come down to depend on what device you are using. Suppose you use a Windows computer. You operate the new Jaws Narrator. Or you use an iPhone. It has a built-in screen reader called Voiceover. So this means when I use a different like a keyboard or touch screen. I’ll get feedback and audio that tells me where I am at and what to do next.
Kristen (Narrator):
Like Daniel, I use screen reading software on both my phone and my computer to collaborate effectively with my colleagues. People with low vision use various types of monitors to hone in on their work. Here is Leah again.
Leah:
I have a couple of things that I’m working on currently, and a bunch of things that I use at the moment. One thing that I use in my development environment is a wide screen. I think they classify it as an ultraWide. It’s about 32in and it’s very subtly curved. I like this because I can turn down the resolution on this screen so that objects appear larger, and I still have enough screen real estate to put my code editor up and zoom way in.
Kristen (Narrator):
From monitors with features to adjust color and contrast to keyboards and mice that position the hand and wrists in different ergonomic ways, technology provides incredible access to allow users with different needs to work effectively.
Leah:
I also have a chronic illness that causes a lot of joint pain and swelling some days. So I have an ergonomic keyboard that I’m using. It’s one of those split keyboard guys that puts my hands in a more natural position. And I have a stationary mouse. And I use my thumb actually to move the cursor around.
Kristen (Narrator):
Chronic pain is one of those invisible or maybe unknowable disabilities.
Leah:
My thumb very rarely hurts to the point where I can’t move it, but my wrist, elbow, and my fingers often become slightly immobile if I’m having a flare. So the mouse is great. I don’t have to worry about, you know, like joint pain or locking up my wrist or anything like that.
Kristen (Narrator):
Another incredible accommodation is flexibility. Both work-from-home options and flex time can allow individuals to optimize around their best working hours and conditions. This is especially important for team members who might have regular medical appointments.
Charlotte:
The biggest one for me is the flex 40 policy. So one of the biggest things that I do is I get immunotherapy infusions every eight weeks. But, of course, doctor’s offices only operate during business hours. So, in the past [Laughter]. Yeah. One of the biggest accommodations that I always had to request was having that time off to be able to go during the workday, to be able to accommodate those, like super regular appointments. So that was one thing that was always a hard time to coordinate with my former employers. But I feel like that’s one of the biggest, I guess perks or blessings of working at Tamman is that that’s just kind of inherently a part of its culture that they offer to all of the employees.
Kristen (Narrator):
Oh by the way, besides some team coordination, this accommodation essentially costs nothing.
Leah:
I love working from home because the light sensitivity issue is more easily dealt with. For example, I put some light-canceling curtains up, and I can control the light in my office. In fact, sometimes I’ll hop on a meeting and it looks a bit like I’m in a dark cave because I kind of am[Laughter].
Charlotte:
Yeah, it’s the biggest one, the nicest one [Laughter]. And I think the culture of just being able to check in, like one of the things that I have to do is I have to drink a lot of electrolytes during the day to keep my sodium intake up to help with my pots. And so I’m frequently going back to the fridge to get water standing up, you know, making sure that, you know, I’m kind of doing some stretches during the day to just keep all my blood flowing the way it should be. So just being able to kind of get up and take breaks frequently during the day, not really in accommodation, but I think something that’s just like super normalized at Tamman is just being healthy and taking the time that you need.
Kristen (Narrator):
These employees might seem like one-offs. People with disabilities who all landed at a relatively small tech company that decided to treat us like humans. The thing is, though, we are essentially people. Our accommodations are not as unusual as they might seem. Accommodations are for everyone! Here’s Marty Molloy, President of Tamman.
Marty:
So I am someone who, if I didn’t have to have a title, I wouldn’t. That’s just the type of person that I am. I really like a flat organization. But that doesn’t mean that I don’t have responsibilities. Technically, my title is President of Tamman. But really, I see my role as one of builder. We talk about the fact that glasses are a reasonable accommodation or an assistive technology, I should say, is probably more accurate. We talk about the fact that at one of the last conferences we went to, the CSUN assistive technology conference, Haben Girma was giving the keynote. [Laughter] And she talked about lights in the room where she was speaking, being an accommodation for sighted people. Let’s flip that on its head. I love that. The chairs in the room being an accommodation for people who don’t have a wheelchair. There’s a different way of looking at these things and I think it can be pretty powerful.
Kristen (Narrator):
One of my dreams is to meet and chat with Haben Girma, deafblind activist and lawyer who graduated from Harvard Law!
Haben Girma Video Audio:
My name is Haben Girma. I work as a Scatting Fellow at Disability Rights Advocates. In other words, I’m a lawyer. What’s a lawyer? Well, there are many stereotypes, negative stereotypes of lawyers. People who never give you never give you a straight answer. People who just want your money. People who aren’t even people. They’re sharks.
Kristen (Narrator):
She has had such a profound impact on me personally, and on all of us at Tamman. Take Liza Grant, document accessibility specialist and team lead.
Liza:
My name is Liza Grant. I am a document accessibility specialist for Tamman. I do a lot of work with PDF remediation and QA. I do a little bit of training for designers on how to design accessibility into their documents at the start. And kind of whatever else needs to be done. A little ombudspersoning as well in my spare time.
Kristen:
How would you explain ombudspersoning?
Liza:
I would say that if we have an important communication that’s going to go out to a lot of people. Sometimes it will be passed by my desk and I can give it a once over with my beady little eyes and see if any of the language seems like it’s too biased in one way or another. And could and could trigger anyone in the reading audience to feel any sort of way that we’re not intending.
Kristen (Narrator):
Being an Ombudsperson covers sensitivity to language, alt text. Really just thinking about every document from many possible points of view. Now, here’s Liza’s perspective on accommodations for all.
Liza:
We have a colleague who is deaf-blind. And I was having a meeting with them on Zoom because we’re remote. And, I don’t usually dress up for work, so I’m looking really relaxed and casual. Possibly pajama-esque, some would say. But I just had my camera off. I was like, okay, cool, I’m not going to commit too hard. And then as soon as the meeting started, my co-worker had their lights off and their like, ooh, one second and they turn their lights on so that I could see them during the meeting and that is an accommodation that we don’t often think about that I guess I don’t often think about as someone who does use their vision a whole lot. Primarily, I would say. Turning a light on so that I can see someone on a camera, or just turning your camera on at all for me to see is an accommodation for people who are sighted. And it’s not something that my co-worker had to do. But it was something that they were accustomed to doing and that they thought was a kind thing to do for people who perceive differently than them to have a full communication-rich conversation. So that’s the first thing I needed to add here. I was just reframing what we think about as accommodations and what things are. What needs are special? What things are extra or that you go through a lot of hoops to get? It might seem like it’s not very necessary for somebody, but things that are only necessary for the majority are never really called into question even though they cost the most amount of money, they take the most amount of resources to build and time to engineer. So that’s just some nom nom food for thought.
Kristen (Narrator):
So, with this scenario, the employer is not the only accommodation giver. In a truly collaborative culture, employers and employees accommodate each other on a regular basis. So at Tamman, how do these accommodations come together? As Marty says …
Marty:
Making sure that our operations and everything that allows the experts of our organization to thrive is in place to allow them to do that. So that’s the main thing that I do. I care deeply about our partnerships. I care deeply about the folks that we are working with. And, when I’m successful, I am less like Aladdin’s genie from the Disney movie where he – you know, Robin Williams pops up
Audio from the movie Aladdin with poof sound effects:
“Poof – What do you need?” “Poof – What do you need?”
Marty:
If I’m doing that, then, I’m not as successful. So, when things are running smoothly and folks feel really supported, that’s how I see my role at Tamman. To make sure that folks can do what they need to do. Because we are so fortunate to have a team of brilliant, phenomenal expert people focused on accessibility and inclusion and I just couldn’t be more proud of the folks that I get to work with.
Kristen (Narrator):
Marty, like most people at Tamman, wants to help with everything, so that was a bit of an understatement on his part. Still I’d like you to meet the person who might be the closest Tamman has to a genie.
Theresa (Tee):
My name is Theresa Tuccillo. I am an admin. What I do for Tamman is connect all the departments to each other. Make sure all of the leadership and management are all on the same page for everything that’s coming in and out. One part of my role is onboarding new hires and working with Team members. And that’s who they are to me. They’re colleagues, yes, but they’re my team members that I support with all aspects of helping them get onboarded, situated, and whatever they need to do their jobs. And then whatever they need personally that they need a reminder of how to do something for benefits and how to do something for payroll or 401K. Those are areas I also work with, with the team members and with the outside organizations that we work with.
Kristen (Narrator):
Okay, so now you’ve met our “cast of characters.” Let’s get into this accommodations story. Why is the silence around disability accommodations so profound?
Why is it so difficult for employees to ask for what they need to succeed?
As a person with a disability, I know that the job interview process and hiring processes are fraught for everyone. But there are some unique complexities in being part of a group of people who has historically not been hired. Those of us with invisible disabilities often wonder when it’s best to broach the disability some of us have hidden and others of us wish was easier to spot. Those of us with visible disabilities know we’ve been found out and wonder how to make it seem both normal and unique. And all of this, of course, varies with the individual. I asked my colleagues about some of the complexities that come with asking about accommodations.
Leah:
This is such a good question. And I’ve had the opportunity to work many different kinds of jobs now. I’ve been a music teacher in public schools. I’ve worked several different government-related jobs as secretaries or typist clerks. And back in 2021, I started working as a developer and an accessibility specialist. So it’s quite a wide range of jobs. And with different accommodation needs for each job. But I’ll tell you, I struggle as a person with anxiety. And I call it being in blind kid limbo. I still have some functional vision and it varies depending on the light level or the task that I’m performing. So I don’t often look blind. I guess I’ve been told if I’m indoors in a dark room. So it makes it weird when I asked for accommodations because sometimes it’ll take people by surprise. And sometimes the assistive tech that I need may be expensive. And that causes a pang of guilt a little bit.
Kristen (Narrator):
So for Leah, the worry about expense is very real. The guilt about asking for what she needs. That idea that she may be putting a burden not only on the company, but on society. Instead of the idea that she just needs a couple of items to help her to give a company her very best work.
Leah:
And that’s something that I think a lot of people in our situation have to cope with because it’s like, who am I? Like, there are people who are way worse off than me who deserve help. And so it’s sort of like overcoming that and understanding that I also deserve to function at my very best. And I intend to work very hard and do a good job for whichever company hires me. I need a level playing field in order to do that. So that’s something that I’ve been kind of trying to work through personally. And it depends on how the accommodations arrive too. Some companies, especially after Covid, now have a budget so that when their employees work from home, they’re just like, here’s $500 and get what you need from the budget. And in some instances, like, the largest company I worked for was quite a large corporation. And they sent me what they had. So I got several different laptops for testing on. A couple of mobile devices. And several different keyboards. None of which were ergonomic. So that was a little frustrating, but it was sort of like you get what you get and you don’t throw a fit situation. Even though I required accommodations [laughter], I ended up shelling out for some accessible items on my own.
Kristen (Narrator):
That is a guilt and a fear I know all too well. I’ve sometimes shelled out my own money to do a job that I was assigned because I was too scared to ask the company for more.
Leah:
In some cases, some companies treat it, and this is my favorite way, as though everybody needs a little bit of office adaptation to be comfortable working for long periods in one place. And, I think that’s really great because it takes away the guilt or the funny feeling that you get when you’re like, “Hey, I’m really not comfortable working in this particular situation. Is there a way that we can adapt my workspace to make it a little more inclusive?” So that if the company just treats it like, hey everybody, everybody needs this work, we’ll, we’ll take care of it for everyone. It just levels the playing field for everyone. Cause even if you don’t identify as having a disability, there’s always something you can add to your workspace to make it more comfortable. Make you more efficient.
Kristen (Narrator):
Instead of just needing a couple of items to help her give her company her very best work, Charlotte’s concerns touched on the expense too and delved into some other emotional terrain.
Charlotte:
One of the biggest reasons why it feels so hard is the fear of being told no[Laughter]. Which I think is really scary when you have these things because what happens if and I think sometimes when the answer is no. Like for me, being able to take time off for those infusions. You know, if I was told, no, I don’t I don’t really know what I would do because in those circumstances, you have to choose between either maintaining your good standing at work, or attending to your health [Laughter]. So I think that, you know, the fear of not having those accommodations met or understood. Or I think in general, the stigma, I think that sometimes comes along with accommodations. Like, “oh, you’re asking for something that’s not the standard or, you know, is different than what other people are asking for.” I think you worry that people might look at you differently or think that you’re not as good of a worker. Or, you know, I think just like the negative connotations that can go along with it. I think that sometimes that can be a fear.
Kristen (Narrator):
For Charlotte, the experience was two-fold. Either the employer would refuse her request outright, or they would perhaps agree but sort of grudgingly and with a stigma that would taint her work experience with management and with other colleagues. These employer concerns, as experiences are conjectured by employees with disabilities, are biases that are so deeply entrenched in our society. And without breaking the hiring denial cycle we are in, we will never get to shake up these biases.
Theresa (Tee):
I started work at home when I was 13 years old. And I have never stopped since. So I’m 50. So there have been so many different jobs and types of work that when you bring up accessibility, each area was different. Like, my first job at 13 was working as a page in a library. And play on words. And I’ve seen librarians just take the time and not have the resources to help kids that were paraplegic. Or help kids that were blind and didn’t have the right books for them. Like seeing them engage with a child right next to them and showing them how to use a microfiche where they take a negative that literally incorporates all of the resources, library books, newspapers, articles, and it’s all there. And you can search on it to find what you need. And to see a librarian help a child who is probably, ten, 12 years old. It warms your heart because you see that person doing what they want to do and teach and help and learn. I progressed into restaurants, catering, and thought that was where my career was going. Then I went to dental assisting and then finance. And when I went to finance is when I saw a big absence of not seeing accessibility and not having a language or a dialog of that conversation. It was absent.
Kristen (Narrator):
Absent? Why is it absent?
Kristen:
What are the fears employers might have when hiring someone with a disability?
Marty:
Kristen, this is an area that you and I have spoken about before personally. I don’t know that we’ve ever written about it or talked about it on a recording. But, the fear that employers have, I think they’re afraid of getting sued. To be blunt about it. This is one area in a Civil Rights context, where there is still such blatant and obvious discrimination happening. Especially obviously with visible disabilities. Now employers probably if they were thoughtful about it, and were able to do a full census of the folks, would realize that they already have employees with disabilities that they may or may not be adequately supporting. But the fact of the matter is they’re not hiring people with visible disabilities because they are afraid. And they are afraid of not being able to support them right. They are afraid of not being able to provide them with appropriate accommodations. It can be a confusing landscape but that’s no excuse. The fact of the matter is, we have entirely too many people who are skilled, brilliant, really ready to bring forth amazing things in our workplaces that we are leaving on the sidelines because of that fear from employers of hiring people with disabilities. Now I’d never hired or worked with anyone who was blind. You Have to be willing as a leader to put yourself in a position that can feel uncomfortable. And say, “I don’t know, but I’m going to figure this out.” And, I think when it comes to hiring people with disabilities, that fear for many employers is so paralyzing, they don’t realize they are hurting their company by not reaching out and finding individuals who have disabilities to be part of their teams..
Kristen (Narrator):
I wanted to hear more about that culture of absence Theresa was talking about.
Theresa (Tee):
The first phrase that comes to mind is, “You don’t know, what you don’t know.” I was taught spiritually that you really don’t know what you don’t know. It took a lot for me to constantly repeat that to figure out what it truly meant in my mind. And what I saw was, it just wasn’t a conversation. You didn’t see or experience anyone around you that was blind, that was deaf. You would see the occasional person in a wheelchair. And you would see someone with cerebral palsy. You would be aware that someone had a neurodiversity issue, but that word was not used 25 years ago. I didn’t hear that until the last five, ten years. I hear it way more now because I’m at Tamman. And we encourage people to communicate that. We encourage people just coming in, or they are someone that has been with us, and we’re like, you don’t know when something’s going to happen. I think Marty touched on it. Something can be temporary. People have accidents. You know, they may be in a car accident. And something comes out of that accident, that they need assistance. Accommodations. So, when I think back to when I first started as a secretary in a major corporation, a commodities trading firm. And then I went to a finance and corporate company. It just wasn’t there. I just didn’t see it. We just didn’t talk about it. And then when you see it and you hear, “oh, well, that person has this, I don’t know if they’re going to be able to do the job that is required of them.”
[lightning strike sfx]
Kristen (Narrator):
And this might be the most controversial point of our entire story. Hidden discrimination, and how it affects everyone. The fear of asking for help. The fear of being sued. The fear of cost. The fear that a person with a disability cannot do their job. These fears are all part of our collective terror, the great fear of the unknown that’s holding all of us back.
Theresa (Tee):
Now, it was never said to me in the context of “Tee we can’t hire that person.” No, I would never state that, because it never happened. But it was always a concern. “Could the person actually do this job? I was around data analysts. I was around people that were doing numbers, like they could see a cell and know the formula’s off by two points or a half or third. And they had it calculated differently. Can someone with a visual impairment catch that or read it fast enough, or even perform or create that formula to what they needed, and do it in the same time frame as someone else? Did I get a sense of that? Yes. But I had some pretty good bosses.
Kristen:
Exactly. And so on the one hand, like, nobody will actually ever say out loud or write, because you don’t want anything in writing either. Like, “oh we don’t hire that person.” That is illegal to do. Then there’s a big silence about it because nobody knows what anyone can do or can’t do. And then, you know, based on that kind of silence and the assumptions, then you can end up doing something illegal by accident. But it’s not illegal because nobody has ever. Yeah, it’s a big, big problem.
Theresa (Tee):
It is a cultural problem. I want to state that it’s definitely a cultural problem where we don’t know what we don’t know.
Kristen (Narrator):
Turns out Theresa may not actually be a genie. What she is, though, was a person who’s willing to start that process of shattering the silence around disabilities. And if that’s not magic, I don’t know what is.
Theresa (Tee):
The old argument, men and women, the salaries and the differences and the difference between races and the difference between religions. That’s all there. What about the differences between someone that doesn’t have an accessibility accommodation need and the people that do? And that dialog is just I feel like hitting conferences and hitting education. Which is great. But I’ve been working for 28 years and back in the 80s and 90s and 2000s, it was not there. To hear it in 2020. Yes. Fantastic. I’m excited. Let’s do this. Let’s just shout it from the rooftop. Everybody should be encouraged to learn about this. That’s what Tamman’s all about.
Kristen:
When you started working with employees with disabilities or different access needs and, either like onboarding them or knowing that you were going to work with them more directly, did you have any concerns or fears about that?
Theresa (Tee):
Yes, because I was afraid of what I don’t know. And, Marty was the first person to say it to me. And he was like, Tee, you’re gonna fail. And I’m like, “well, that’s a great way to start this conversation.” But he then said, “Get ready. You’re going to fail. You’re going to say something wrong. You’re not going to know what to do, how to answer it and be okay with that.” I said, “You realize who you’re talking to right?”
Kristen (Narrator):
The fear of saying something incorrect, of trying to figure out everything so it’s perfect, can sometimes make it really hard to start at all. And that has huge ramifications for employees who remain, as a group, one of the largest untapped resources for every company in the world.
In the next episode, you’ll hear all about the way Tee and everyone who worked for the company conquered their fear of failure, one employee experience at a time.
Kristen (Narrator):
We could not have completed this pilot narrative episode grouping without our amazing cast: Liza Grant, Daniel Hawkins, Leah Mattern, Charlotte McGhee, Marty Molloy and Theresa Tuccillo. Sloan Miller and Sydney Bromfield kept us on track and out of a few dangerous rabbit holes. Steven Stufflebeam provided crucial production support during our first venture, and Markus Goldman, our executive producer, laid it all out, listening again and again and again. I am our host and narrator/writer, Kristen Witucki.
If you like what you heard today and want to explore more about digital accessibility, technology, our company culture, and more -or- to schedule a time to meet with us — You can find the whole Tamman team at tammaninc.com, that’s t-a-m-m-a-n-i-n-c .com. Don’t forget to sign up for our newsletter too, so you never miss an event or an insight from us.
Be sure to rate our podcast 5 stars on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. It really helps our podcast grow and reach new audiences. Also, make sure to follow us and hit that bell icon, so you never miss an episode.
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Until next time, thank you so much for listening and being a part of Article 19. Take care.
Show notes:
- Article 19’s episode on Normalizing Workplace Accommodations, second episode
- Haben Girma: The first Deafblind person to graduate from Harvard Law School, Haben Girma is a human rights lawyer advancing disability justice.
- Sierra-Tamman 360-Degrees of Inclusion: A collaboration aimed at supporting your company in reaching your inclusive employment, professional development, and digital information goals.
- Supporting Employees with Accommodations: The Sierra Group provides insight into inclusive hiring practices.
- I just want to work: Article 19 host, Kristen Witucki shares her real-life experiences and offers perspective for people with disabilities who are looking for jobs.
- Moving Through Guilt about Biases: This blog explores clear steps to take mindful action to foster inclusive hiring practices and create systemic change.
- Creating a More Inclusive Hiring Practice: Offering a guide to employers to support them in creating a more inclusive hiring practice.
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Normalizing Workplace Accommodations, second episode
